Legislature(2003 - 2004)
05/14/2003 08:15 AM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SB 56-SPORT FISHING FEES FOR YUKON RESIDENTS CHAIR FATE announced that the final order of business would be CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 56(FIN), "An Act relating to sport fishing license fees and anadromous king salmon tag fees for residents of Yukon, Canada; and providing for an effective date." Number 1608 SENATOR FRED DYSON, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor, explained that Yukon, Canada, whose population now is just below 30,000, is struggling economically and yet has worked with Alaska enthusiastically to extend the railroad, put in a gas line, and so forth. Its government has passed legislation to provide reciprocity on fishing licenses to allow Alaskans to fish there for arctic char, grayling, and trout, for example, and works closely [with the State of Alaska] on managing caribou herds. SENATOR DYSON noted that committee packets include letters from the State Chamber of Commerce and from Haines and Skagway, the two communities that see the most Yukoners taking advantage of saltwater fishing there; both communities see this bill as perhaps a bit of an economic boon. SENATOR DYSON informed members that the bill allows Yukon residents to pay resident Alaskan rates for licenses; however, they won't be classified as residents when it comes to managing the [fish]. Thus nothing gives them equal access in times of shortage. Rather, this allows a small privilege of buying licenses at resident rates. He indicated Yukoners he'd spoken with are delighted with this concept. He said the bill's language is permissive, allowing the commissioner to extend this courtesy to Yukon residents if the commissioner so chooses. Number 1833 REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said he is excited about this. He pointed out that when floating down the Yukon River starting in Canada, a person must stop and look for where the border is, since it is seamless. He characterized Yukon residents as Alaskans' brothers and sisters, and applauded whoever came up with the idea of the bill. SENATOR DYSON suggested applauding former Senator Randy Phillips. CHAIR FATE agreed it's a good idea, long overdue. He surmised that technicalities such as whether the licenses are a different color would be taken care of by the department. Number 1930 REPRESENTATIVE WOLF said he didn't have problems with the bill, but expressed concern that "we have nonresident Alaskans influencing management of Alaska's fish and game at this time already, and they're U.S. citizens." Agreeing that the Yukoners are like brothers and sisters, he questioned why they won't be allowed [to participate in management], while he said "nonresident Alaskans" are allowed to. CHAIR FATE responded that he thinks that is conjecture and arguable. Indicating he didn't want to address that issue, he said this particular legislation has to stand on its own merit, which he interpreted to be the cost and authority to allow Yukon residents to come to Alaska to fish [for a nonresident fee]. Number 2007 REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN said he's delighted to see the bill, since he represents a district that borders Canada and he knows people in Gakona, for example, who have dual citizenship, and knows people in Aniak who have relatives from Fort Yukon. He said this has been a long time coming. "The more we can open up our arms ... and try to be good neighbors, it's good for the country, it's good for my village, it's good for the urban area, it's good for the world," he told members. Number 2098 REPRESENTATIVE GATTO moved to report CSSB 56(FIN) out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. [Attention was brought to a testifier from the department, whom Chair Fate invited to speak; the motion was left pending.] Number 2129 GORDY WILLIAMS, Legislative Liaison, Office of the Commissioner, Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G), noted that as the sponsor statement says, this concept had been before the legislature previously but didn't pass. He agreed Canadians and Yukoners are good neighbors, but suggested it is important to put on the record some public policy and fiscal issues. Drawing attention to the fiscal note and accompanying explanation sheet, he offered his understanding that the sponsor believes people coming over [from the Yukon] will spend money in Alaskan communities. However, Mr. Williams highlighted the potential loss in state revenue: $46,000 to the fish and game fund through the projections in the fiscal note. MR. WILLIAMS addressed public policy issues. He told members: We think this could set a bit of a precedent. And the Senator doesn't necessarily agree, and says that ... others haven't come forth and said they would give us this reciprocity. But we do share a long border with British Columbia. And, for example, the primary sport fishing locations for the Yukoners are Haines and Skagway, to a large degree, because they have access to salt water there and to salmon and halibut and things that they don't have elsewhere. ... And if you drive out of either Haines or Skagway, you're in British Columbia for the first hour or so that you drive out of there. And ... we're not offering this to British Columbia and, as the Senator will point out, they're not offering it to us either. But it ... is a little bit of a precedent. What if British Columbia does come to us and say that they would like to do a similar thing? We have significantly different sport fishing regulations in Alaska and bag limits, versus what they have in the Yukon or what they have in British Columbia. For example, I think in the Yukon [they're] allowed to keep either 2 or 4 salmon a day. And in Alaska the total amount would be 27, but that would mean you'd have to ... catch the maximum of all the species, but certainly you could be reasonably expected to catch 6 to 8 salmon a day when the cohos are around, plus the halibut and the bottomfish. MR. WILLIAMS concluded by saying this is a nice thing to give people, but the department wants the committee to be aware of the foregoing issues. Number 2282 REPRESENTATIVE GATTO remarked that sales generally increase whenever a discount is given. He asked about the effects. MR. WILLIAMS referred to the spreadsheet and said it's hard to predict. Right now, the annual nonresident license is $100. This shows 2,700 Yukon participants; he surmised that many are the same people because it's cheaper now to buy a series of one- day or multi-day licenses than to buy the annual one. If the annual license dropped to $15, however, people no longer would buy shorter-term licenses. Number 2334 CHAIR FATE asked whether the aggregate revenues from sport fishing licenses offset the costs, no matter what length of time the licenses are for. MR. WILLIAMS deferred to Mr. Bentz, but noted that sport fish license fees are a significant component because no general fund dollars go into sport fish. He asked whether Chair Fate was talking about costs for management and running the fishery. CHAIR FATE mentioned the cost of licenses, protection, and running the [Division of Sport Fish]. Number 2408 ROB BENTZ, Deputy Director, Division of Sport Fish, Alaska Department of Fish & Game, responded: It does offset the costs. We match federal monies, Dingell-Johnson, Wallop-Breaux federal funds. We match those with ... the revenues from the fish and game fund that are license fees and king salmon tags. And we pay for, with a combination of funds, our entire sport fish division budget. ... There are more things that we could do, that we'd like to do, but it does fund our program. CHAIR FATE surmised, then, that ADF&G hasn't "peeled off" the amount of revenue derived from state sources to create a spreadsheet or record of that particular income from the state. MR. BENTZ said [the department] knows what the license revenue is. The amount of federal funding is learned after the fact every year. MR. WILLIAMS pointed out that king salmon tags are sold more like duck stamps. The department knows how much money is raised yearly from king salmon tags, but not how many tags are generated by Yukon residents or other people. The department knows all the revenue raised from sport fish licensing and can track that by state or person, except for the king salmon tags. Number 2515 REPRESENTATIVE WOLF asked whether the department is taking a wild guess about the number of licenses. MR. WILLIAMS indicated the department had looked at the period when the annual license fee was raised to $100 and found that participation from the Yukon remained pretty static. MR. BENTZ, in response to a question from Representative Wolf, said the foregoing was in the mid-1990s, perhaps 1995 or 1996. Number 2569 REPRESENTATIVE HEINZE asked about the potential loss of $46,000. MR. WILLIAMS referred to the spreadsheet, noting that the explanation sheet shows the different categories. The spreadsheet shows 2002 revenues. The 2,700 [specifically, 2,741, the total licenses sold to Yukon Territory residents] is hard to predict, since many of the figures above on the spreadsheet are from people who bought one-day, three-day, or seven-day licenses because that's cheaper than buying an annual license. Although it isn't 2,700 discrete individuals, the department hasn't reviewed how many are repeat customers and so forth. He indicated 2,700 was used as the base number and carried through. Number 2626 REPRESENTATIVE HEINZE asked how much the $46,000 would affect ADF&G's Division of Sport Fish. MR. BENTZ said one could multiply the $46,000 from the fish and game fund by three, for about $120,000, since the department matches 25 percent state funds - these fish and game funds - with 75 percent federal funds. Therefore, closer to $170,000 wouldn't be in the fish and game fund, or there would be federal funds that the state couldn't match with this $46,000. Thus about $170,000 would be lost from the annual operating budget, which equates to several significant field projects. Number 2697 CHAIR FATE said he's a bit bothered by the fiscal note and some of the spreadsheet numbers because everything seems indeterminate and based on king salmon and king salmon tags in coming up with the $46,000 figure. He noted that people fish for grayling or pike, for example, on the Yukon River or Porcupine River. He questioned whether the department had any idea whether $46,000 was a firm figure. Number 2787 MR. BENTZ acknowledged that one hard-to-determine number is how many people the 2,700 licenses represent, as Mr. Williams had said, because some people make multiple trips and buy short-term licenses. For people coming to sport fish out of Haines and Skagway, however, Mr. Bentz said he thinks it's a good estimate that half buy king salmon tags. He explained: We've got hatchery fish returning to those areas. We increased the bag limits. In some cases, in some places, the annual limit that is imposed on nonresidents is waived in these terminal areas. It's a very attractive fishery, not only for people coming down out of Canada, but for the local residents [of] Southeast Alaska. MR. BENTZ said he's not as familiar with the fishing patterns of Yukon anglers in the Interior, and surmised there would be more emphasis on resident species such as grayling or burbot, for example. He added, "But definitely in Southeast, from what we've seen, the people that do come down are after anadromous adult salmon and halibut and other bottomfish." Number 2868 REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG referred to the 2,700 figure for Yukon residents and asked whether there is another number for British Columbia, which has a much larger population. MR. BENTZ said he didn't know that number but could have it generated by the department. Number 2912 REPRESENTATIVE HEINZE suggested if these people spend $20 to $30 a day, that totals $54,000 to $81,000. Highlighting the estimated $170,000 loss to the department, she said although this bill is a wonderful idea, she's trying to justify it fiscally. She requested Senator Dyson's input. SENATOR DYSON replied: My guess is, there will be an increase in the number of fishermen. My guess also, to be honest, is the net revenue from that fishery to the department will decrease a bit. And if the sales tax passes, I suspect that the communities there will more than make up for that, and we will more than make up for it in state revenue. And I'd be delighted to work with the department to make sure that ... we don't lose those "leverage federal funds" ... in some way; I don't know how to do that. But I've got to be honest: I think that these guys are right, and they're not enemies; they're just putting forth ... the department's real concern about the money. But I think [there'll] be a net gain for us, as a state, on it, and I think [there'll] be a net revenue loss of an undetermined amount to these folks. TAPE 03-45, SIDE B Number 2991 SENATOR DYSON reiterated that Yukoners are excited about this, and spoke about the gain in public relations, which isn't quantifiable. He characterized this as a small gesture that will help with a gas pipeline and extending the railroad, for example. He noted that Representative Gruenberg had gone with him to the Yukon on his last trip, and talked about continuing the bilateral partnership between Yukon and Alaska. He said it is intangible and cannot be put on a spreadsheet or in a fiscal note. He also mentioned the concept of "circle tourism" that includes both the Yukon and Alaska. He suggested the impact from this bill will be small but measurable. CHAIR FATE offered that the fiscal note is negative but indeterminate. Number 2864 REPRESENTATIVE WOLF asked how much is generated statewide through tags and license fees annually in Alaska. MR. BENTZ said roughly $11 million to $12 million for sport fishing licenses and king salmon tags. REPRESENTATIVE WOLF suggested $42,000 is a small amount in the overall picture. MR. BENTZ concurred. Number 2819 REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG surmised that a lot of funds go into management, maintenance, and salaries. He remarked, "A lot of times, when it comes down to what you can do with the last dollar into a project, that could be in any one of our communities." He said he'll make a speech on the House floor if the bill gets there about trying to make up those funds in the short term. He then asked whether Dingell-Johnson funds can only be matched with sport fishing funds or can be matched with general fund dollars. MR. BENTZ replied that the only thing federal funds cannot be matched with is other federal funds or federally generated money. Therefore, it could be from the general fund or the fish and game fund. REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG suggested the legislature should ensure there isn't a net loss to the department at the end of the budget process. Number 2770 CHAIR FATE asked whether there was any objection to the motion. There being no objection, CSSB 56(FIN) was reported from the House Resources Standing Committee.
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